A Man’s Response To Feminism, And A Woman’s Response To That Man’s Response

My buddy Stephen, who loves sarcasm and hates modern feminism, read this article that inspired him to go on a rant.  I read the article and I read his rant and I got inspired to respond to all of it.  Here it is.

The article that sent Stephen off can be found here: http://elitedaily.com/dating/gentlemen/proper-dates/

It’s short, so you won’t waste too much time in reading it.

Author’s note* ANYTHING IN ITALICS BELONGS TO THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE THAT STEPHEN IS RESPONDING TO.  ANYTHING THAT IS FOLLOWING A BULLET IS FROM YOURS TRULY.

“Have we lost all chivalry in society today?”
Stephen: In a lot of guys, yes. For the rest, there is hesitation. Why? Feminism and feminists killed chivalry.

  • My issue isn’t with the idea that chivalry is dead, although I do agree with Stephen.  For many men, it’s a foreign concept, perhaps altogether alien.  My issue, instead, is with this chick’s opening “Have we lost all chivalry in society today?” then immediately following it up with “I want my men to ask me on proper dates.”  …  What, exactly, is the connection between chivalry and dating, young lady?  Do you know what the dictionary says the definition of chivalry is?  Have you ever looked up the origins of the traditions surrounding chivalry?  …Based on your expectations of men, I doubt it.
  • Dictionary.com’s definition of chivalry, for those of you that would like to stay informed and semantically correct:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chivalry?s=t

dictnry
“I want my men to ask me on proper dates. I want them to take me out on proper dates. It’s really not too much to ask.”
Stephen: Men and Women are equals now.  You ask us.  Fewer and fewer men are risking their egos and reputations to ask women out. You either get the guys that cast a wide net, trying to get laid, or you get the guy that doesn’t want to get called a creep, just because he expressed an interest, and he wasn’t exactly what you wanted.

  • To be fair, nowhere in the article did the author, Brooklyn, state herself to be a card-carrying feminist.  So Stephen’s bashing of Brooklyn for expecting and demanding men to treat her like a princess seems a little hypocritical when Stephen is, at the very same time, expecting and demanding Brooklyn to be feminist.
  • As for the “creep” accusation…I have been guilty of this.  There have been kind gentlemen who, having expressed an interest in me, have received a stiff refusal, simply because these gentlemen were not physically attractive enough for my snotty tastes.  Not only did I refuse them, though, but I moved on to chatter rudely about these gentlemen behind their backs to my closest friends.  I have used the word “creep” far too often.  I have abused the reputation of a good man because he didn’t suit my preferences, yet had the courage to display his.  I, along with so many other women, am the worst kind of coward.  Vicious and cruel.  It’s no wonder men don’t want to ask women out.  I wouldn’t, either!  And, frankly, I was entirely undeserving of their attentions.

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“To be honest, I don’t think that I am going to find a partner by trolling for hotties on Tinder, but I do still think I can meet some cool dudes and maybe even get taken out on a few dates.”
Stephen: That is why “we lost all chivalry in society today”.  So many women just want to have fun, and men are their toys.  Believe it or not, ‘ladies’, men have real feelings, and your feminist bullshit is starting to grind us down.

  • I have to side with Stephen here, again.  If this chick wants to find one good man, then stay away from sites or bars or churches or whatever with negative reputations.  You want to find your “soul mate”?  Well, chances are you won’t find him in a drinking contest at the local community college.  Then again, maybe you’re the girl kicking his ass.  But don’t pretend to be hurting for legitimate men and legitimate effort when you’re trolling for easy dick.

trolling
“It is my strict and personal belief that if I am asked on a proper date, I will ALWAYS say yes! I don’t care who you are, what you do, or what you look like. I will say yes, provided I’m not in a committed relationship – and even then I have been given permission to go on a few (long story).”
Stephen: I’m sure this is a legitimate statistic which was in no way created out of thin air by self-serving bias and confirmation bias.

  • Circumstantial, Stephen! (but imagine me saying this while dressed as a judge with a gavel in my hand)

2010-09-17-gavel“Let’s review what a proper date is…”
Stephen: Oh, do tell.

“It starts by actually asking me out. Please call me up on the phone, or if we are talking in person, ask me then. I will accept a text message asking me out, but it knocks you down a few points.”
Stephen: Oh, you’re assigning me points.  At least we have now established that this is a negotiation, so don’t get pissed off when I start assigning you points.

  • Haha, points.  Like I’m going to win something by getting enough of them.  Golly, I got fifteen points from that date, I wonder what I can trade them in for?  Maybe, if I’m really good, I can score five more on the way home and get to cop a feel.  Seriously, Brooklyn?  What is a point system doing in a modern, healthy relationship?  I bet you like to hold stuff against your man for months at a time, too, huh?
  • Also, I don’t mind being asked out in text message.  It makes it so much easier for me to say “no”.  You want to go out with me…but you don’t want to call me, or even ask in person?  Riiiiiight.  Well, no worries, buckaroo, I can just write you off with the solid knowledge that if I wasn’t important or interesting enough for a phone call, then I probably won’t be important or interesting enough for an enjoyable date.  Thanks for making this so easy for me.
  • To be fair, Brooklyn, not everyone has the same standards as you.  You don’t mind being asked out in a text.  I do.  That doesn’t make either of us any less of a woman, nor does it entitle men to treat either of us as less than human.  It isn’t cool to push your standards on others, babe.

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“To any of these three proposals, I’d likely say, ‘Absolutely!'”
Stephen: Just going to go ahead and quote the article for this one. “If I am asked on a proper date, I will ALWAYS say yes!”  Already we are backing away from our ‘ALWAYS’ comment.  Maybe if the guy really is unattractive, and he can be written off as a creeper, simply because he thought you were worth speaking to.

  • Well, she did contradict herself here.
  • Also, I do not practice saying “Absolutely!” to every schmuck who asks me out.  It’s called a “woman’s intuition” for a reason.  Women have it as a sort of defense mechanism.  It picks up on all the subtle signs of psycho a man can exude that evade our naked eyes.  Brooklyn, it’s okay to say “no”.  Simply having the courage to ask you out doesn’t have to be the lowest standard you bear.

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“Unfortunately, it takes balls these days to actually ask a girl out.”
Stephen: Yeah, guys have a lot to lose for someone who treats us like the enemy for no other reason that some Berkley professor said to.

  • Brooklyn, dear, it takes balls to ask women out in any century.  We’re scary creatures.  Don’t act like real men are at an all-time-low.  There’s been a deficiency for a long time, the world over.  And real women are just as hard to find.
  • Again, Stephen is using totally circumstantial evidence.  And it’s unfair to assume that an education, or lack thereof, is to blame for young women growing up to treat men as the enemy.  We’re surrounded by so many conflicting ideas and images.  We’re being suffocated into unhealthy bodies and degrading self esteem.  We’re shoved into little mental boxes that allow no free thought or room to breathe.  Everyone is eager to tell us what to believe, but so few of our biggest influences encourage us to think for ourselves, much less know how to teach us.  From a young age, I was taught that feminism was not only “cool” and “empowering” but also “necessary for survival”.  I was going to be a feminist because, otherwise, men wouldn’t respect me at all.  I had to demand my rights (an action which, in and of itself, acknowledges that  I do not have my rights and that someone else has the power to give them to me.  It’s self-defeating).  I had to be noisy and opinionated and controversial.  Contrary for the sake of being contrary.  It’s kind of exhausting.  I’d be lying if I said that many women didn’t treat men like the enemy, though.  It’s a fair point.  And very concerning.

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“Now, gentlemen, when you ask me out on a proper date, that means you pick me up at my house, knock on my door and escort me to wherever it is we are going. Please open doors for me. I dressed up for you. You can show me some manners if you’re really trying to impress.”
Stephen:  No, no.  We are equals.  Again, you ask us.  Knock on our door.  Escort us to wherever it is we are going.  Open doors for us.  We stopped playing video games and watching football for you.  You can show us some manners if you’re really trying to impress.  But, sadly, I imagine you are just assigning us a point value and playing your games.

  • I don’t feel like Brooklyn is asking a whole lot here…I mean, you did ask me out.  Are we really expecting too much for you to come up with a plan when you were the one who expressed interest in us to begin with?
  • Brooklyn’s next few sentences went like this, “Of course I can open my own doors. Heck, I can change my own oil! That is not the point. I am a lady on a date. Treat me as a woman.”  Okay, babe, what are you talking about?  You are a lady…on a date.  As opposed to all other hours of the day when you’re a gorilla?  Either you’re a lady…or you’re not.  You think a lady can’t get her hands dirty?  She can.  You think a lady can’t raise her voice when necessary?  She can.  Or did you think being a lady meant being two-faced while you were out with the man you were trying to impress?  You gonna do your hair real nice and paint your face and wear a pretty dress?  You gonna laugh at all his jokes and flirt like you actually think he’s funny?  Yeah?  That’s disgusting.  You want to be treated like a woman, Brooklyn?  Well, you will be.  Because you are a woman.  But being female doesn’t make you a lady.


“The age-old question of who should pay is awkward for the first few months for every couple. Guys, I am sorry but the burden falls on you.”
Stephen:  Not anymore.

  • If I asked you out, I would be happy to make the plans and pick you up and pay for our date.  That’s what I do now (ask any of the my ex-boyfriends from the last three years).  If I ask you out, I pay.  If you ask me out, you pay.  Seems only fair.

pays-for-dinner

“You asked me out, so as your guest, you should pay for me”
Stephen:  I’m your guest.  You pay.

  • Now you’re just being difficult.
  • Brooklyn’s next couple sentences said this, “I won’t reach for my purse, but I will make sure to thank you before, during and after.  I will always send a thank you text or call the next day.  Ladies, appreciation goes a long way with a man.  Do not forget that, ever!”  Funny how Stephen didn’t mention that part.  Here Brooklyn is, trying to encourage women to be kind human beings!  And Stephen doesn’t think it is worthy of merit.  Come now, that’s not playing fair with your pseudo-feminist.

 

*Stephen didn’t touch on this paragraph at all but I really feel like I need to:  “A more casual date is allowed if you are meeting a woman for the first time, as in a dating app/site first meeting or a blind date. Obviously, do not ever allow a complete stranger to pick you up from where you live. But boys, after casual outings once or twice, if you like the girl take her out on a proper date.”

  • The sheer amount of stupid in this is overwhelming me.  A more casual date is “allowed”?!  Thank you, Brooklyn, for allowing me to go on casual dates!  I was worried that I’d only ever be allowed to go on “proper dates” for the rest of my life.
  • Wait, I’m not supposed to let complete strangers over to my house?!  OH GOD SOMEONE CALL THE POL-
  • Brooklyn, honey, if he likes the girl, let him take her on whatever kind of they want.  Stop being so bossy, gosh.


“When picking a place, know something about the girl.”
Stephen:  This is your date.  Do your research.  Learn something about me.  I’m watching the World Series.

  • Go Cards!
  • Brooklyn followed with this, “Don’t pick a chain restaurant. No matter how much I love Chili’s, do not take me there for our first date. Pick somewhere interesting, somewhere we can talk and somewhere not too mainstream.”  That’s not fair, Brooklyn.  You’re being a hipster (which is totally obnoxious) and you’re being too individualistic.  Maybe I like Chili’s.  Maybe I don’t like interesting restaurants.  Maybe I enjoy mainstream.  In short, let’s all agree to ignore this part of her article.

chilis-first-date-large-4*Stephen chose not to respond to the next few lines but I actually appreciate what Brooklyn had to say:  “If I’m being taken on an adventure, tell me what to bring. The worst is when you find out you are cliff jumping and need hiking boots to climb the rock face. I’ve got gear, just tell me what to bring!

The same goes for dinner, drinks, show dates – tell me where we are going or give me a dress code. If I show up in a hot dress to find you in jeans and your ball cap, I’ll feel silly. Make sure we are all set for success.”

  • She’s asking for the most basic communication.  This is equivalent to telling a stranger what the time is when you’re asked.  Common courtesy.  Not a demand unrealistic of a man, or a woman.

couple-eating-hiking

“In the end, I put most of the pressure of a first date back on the women.”
Stephen:  It’s all on you now.  Don’t get me wrong.  I promise not to embarrass you, but I can’t promise you won’t be bored.

  • The author failed to elaborate, even a little by what she meant with this statement.  You’re putting pressure on me to entertain my date?  Or do I have to pay now?  Because you just said that my date had to know something about me and pick a cool, hipster restaurant and that he absolutely had to pay…so…


“Ladies, stop accepting anything less than proper dates. I have been in long-term committed relationships and had my fella still ask me on proper dates because I deserve it!”
Stephen:  Men, stop accepting anything less than proper dates.  I have been in long-term committed relationships and had my lady still ask me on proper dates because I deserve it!

  • Brooklyn, stop being ridiculous.  You want better dates?  Date better men.  And, more importantly, be a better woman.
  • Stephen, just stop being ridiculous.


“Gentleman, step up your game! You will win way more hearts (and…other parts) by woo’ing a girl. We love to be treated like proper ladies on dates. Make us gush for you.”
Stephen:  Ladies, step up your game! You will win way more hearts (and…other parts) by woo’ing a guy.  We love to be treated like proper men on dates.  Make us give a damn.

  • Brooklyn is assuming that men use dates as a method to win hearts.  Interesting.  Last guy I dated laughed at my jokes and stalked me on the internet.  Just saying.  Dates aren’t everything.
  • Stephen is acting like the sole responsibility of the relationship falls on the female counterpart.  Which sounds kind of like a one-some rather than a two-some.


Stephen:  Just remember ladies. There are more of you then there are of us. We have a statistically strong negotiating position, and you have been treating us like the enemy for a really long time.  Do you want a good man?  Then, be a good woman.  Smart money does not make stupid decisions.  Feminism turned this into a negotiation, so be worth investing in.

  • Just remember, Stephen, not all women are feminists.  And treating us all the same probably isn’t something a “good man” would do.
The photo that was used for the article.
The photo that was used for the article.

All things said and done and responded to…I generally agree with Stephen.  Feminism is the root cause of the degradation of the modern interpretation of chivalry.  Should men and women be viewed as equal in the eyes of the law?  Absolutely.  But, to be fair, we are not equal.  We are not the same.  I am human, and there are certain rights that belong to me simply because I’m human.  I’m also a woman, and there should be an acknowledgement of that.  I am not the same as a man.  We are different.  Right down to our bone structure.  There’s no shame in that.  The best way to celebrate our differences is not to heap expectations on each gender, as both Brooklyn and Stephen have done, but to heap exceptions on each gender.  For example, Stephen is a damn good man.  And he is the exception to so many accepted notions of male behavior.  Like being a hound-dog for pussy.

You want chivalry to survive the poison that is modern feminism?  Then celebrate the men and women who still practice it, instead of mocking them.

 

My name is Chelsey Mick, and this is how we go on improper dates with feminist men.

  • hastate

    That’s a pretty good article. Way to deconstruct that argument efficiently.